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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 19:56:38 GMT
Dave,
You posted a comment on another site which shall remain nameless offering advice about France, in which you said, inter alia:
"If I can help in any way please ask, the least I can do is say "sorry, but no I don't know that specific aire" but certainly I can offer advice about life in France and the rules that the French love to impose (and charge) on visitors - such as a solid white line and STOP means precisely that - stop, apply handbrake, into neutral back into gear, set up, release brake , move off - i.e. a count of 5 seconds...."
I wonder if a fine imposed by the Gendarme on your guest really was legally enforceable.
As far as I'm aware, road traffic law in France has been complied with as long as the vehicle's wheels come to a complete stop, i.e., that there is no legal requirement for the handbrake to be applied, the vehicle to be knocked out of gear, put back into gear, and then the handbrake released before moving away from the 'Stop' sign (my underlining).
If what you say is the case, however, can you please cite the precise legislation which requires this?
In the meantime, I'll be content with simply ensuring that I stop behind the line rather than the manner of how I do so and, if any Gendarme wants to give me a fine for some (mis)perceived infraction of the law I'll be prepared to argue the point with his superiors.
Thanks.
Liam.
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glandwr
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Post by glandwr on Apr 18, 2014 20:43:36 GMT
Without let or hinderance as the old big blue passports used to say eh Liam
Dick
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 20:58:37 GMT
Sorry, Dick, the point you're making is lost on me as I don't see what's wrong with standing up for ones rights. Case law and the Road Traffic Acts here also require one to stop when one encounters a 'Stop' sign but there is no legal requirement as to how one does so and provided that one's wheels stop behind the line, then one has complied with the law. I believe that it is the same in France until someone disabuses me by citing appropriate legislation. Just because some fellow in a uniform says that one has broken the law is not sufficient, in and of itself, to prove that one has; I was told that by a Juge D'Instruction who was a pupil of my wife's when she was teaching in Biarritz.
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Barry B'stard
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Post by Barry B'stard on Apr 18, 2014 21:16:11 GMT
I have trouble obeying the stop sign in France on the scooter as the bloody brakes dont work!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 7:03:32 GMT
Just put your feet down and dig your heels into the road - as long as you're wearing rubber-soled trainers, it works. Failing that, get a louder horn.
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Post by alhod on Apr 19, 2014 8:13:21 GMT
The gendarmes seem to have a much 'livelier' approach to enforcing the Stop requirement than their brethren in UK. Several people have told me about this apply handbrake etc nonsense but, like you Liam, I find it hard to believe. The intent of the signs is clearly to ensure that traffic on the more important road is given priority and the vehicle entering has made sufficient appraisal of the situation. I apply the handbrake only on a slope and never change the shift to Park - that would be stupid. So when I get pulled for it I'll let you know and you can donate to my legal cost fund!
Alan
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Barry B'stard
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Post by Barry B'stard on Apr 19, 2014 8:34:58 GMT
Just put your feet down and dig your heels into the road - as long as you're wearing rubber-soled trainers, it works. Failing that, get a louder horn. A louder horn would be useful. Actually A horn would be useful. Some of these stop signs are just daft though. You could be in the middle of nowhere with no traffic for 50 miles and a clear view and there is a stop sign at a junction. Do you stop? Do the locals stop? Nope.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 8:48:52 GMT
The gendarmes seem to have a much 'livelier' approach to enforcing the Stop requirement than their brethren in UK. Several people have told me about this apply handbrake etc nonsense but, like you Liam, I find it hard to believe. The intent of the signs is clearly to ensure that traffic on the more important road is given priority and the vehicle entering has made sufficient appraisal of the situation. I apply the handbrake only on a slope and never change the shift to Park - that would be stupid. So when I get pulled for it I'll let you know and you can donate to my legal cost fund! Alan Well, Alan, I'll share the costs of fighting the case provided you share the damages you get for false arrest. Unless French case law or road traffic law states categorically that the car must be put into neutral and the handbrake applied in addition to its wheels coming to a complete stop behind the line (underlining mine), it is sufficient that one simply comes to a stop using the footbrake, changing down and then moving off after checking that it is safe to do so. So, if pulled by a simple plod, or even a sergeant, and they insist on issuing you with a ticket for not using the handbrake, ask them to cite the specific legislation/case law and, failing which, demand to speak to their superior (politely, of course). Liam.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 9:00:26 GMT
Some of these stop signs are just daft though. You could be in the middle of nowhere with no traffic for 50 miles and a clear view and there is a stop sign at a junction. Do you stop? Do the locals stop? Nope. I came across just such a junction in the Dordogne once on a beautiful sunny morning at about 6:00 AM. There was no traffic around anywhere but nevertheless I stopped, fortunately. As I looked left and right along the main road, my wife (who was staring straight out the windscreen across the 'main road' we were joining) said: "What's that?" I looked. It was a Gendarme skulking behind a hedge on a motorbike ready to 'do' us if we hadn't stopped. As I moved off, I gave him a wave. He followed us for a couple of miles, so I got slower and slower until in the end we were doing barely 30mph. Finally, he drew slowly alongside, pulled in front of me, blipped his rear brake then rocketed off up the road. Officious plonker, lucky I didn't run him down!
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Post by penquin on Apr 19, 2014 9:04:43 GMT
AFAIK they insist that you come to a complete stop, that means the wheels are no longer turning, the gendarmes use their own discretion as to what STOP actually is, some say the wheels must stop, the handbrake be applied and then released simply as a way of proving the wheels have stopped. Others say count to 5 then move - it is their discretion as to whether you stopped or not. The same probably applies in the UK but I have never seen a definition of STOP there either....
You can pay the 90€ on the spot, or be taken to an ATM to obtain it, and you get an official receipt. OR if you decide to challenge it you can be taken to court where the minimum fine is 120€, and they have the legal right to impound the vehicle and it's contents until it has been to court to prevent further offences.
There are some points that it is not worth trying to argue - you MIGHT win but might not,and the implications of the delay to try are more serious than the fine at the time.
The same applies when charged with driving offences in the UK - it is at the interpretation of the police officer whether you were "driving without due care" or "dangerous driving" there are few hard and fast rules to define each.
A smart lawyer may well be able to find some legal loophole but his fees would be considerably greater than the 90€ fine.....
Simply stop, and be seen to stop - the police OFTEN wait near junctions just to check that drivers - French and others, actually do stop. They also randomly pull in drivers to check all of their paperwork is in order - even if you have committed no offence or are even suspected of committing one.
Simply STOP where it says so and GIVE WAY where it says so, if it says neither then probably the priorite a droit rule applies but don't believe it always - even the French do not follow that all the time but it primarily applies to all unmarked junctions where there is no STOP or GIVE WAY or solid or dotted white lines to indicate priority. If it's unmarked, but just signed a a crossroad (for example), the priorite a droit rule will apply (if the other drivers think about it.....)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 11:17:17 GMT
'Stop' sign (my underlining). I wondered what that sign was for. I shall have to tell the missus.
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